Tyler: We'll find out if he should just not speak if you're pulled over. Ringstrom Decrae Law in studio. Bruce Ringstrom, Jr., welcome back, my friend. How you been?

Bruce: I'm great, and I'm glad to be here.

Tyler: Glad to have you back. Dane DeKrey.

Dane: it's good to see you, too.

Tyler: Thanks for filling in the other week when I was away, but it's good to have you guys back in. Seriously, we get questions all the time about, okay, I know a guy, I got a friend. In fact, I talked about a friend yesterday.

I swear, this was a friend, this is not me, because when I make fun of it, then I actually have a friend that does it, that got in trouble when we were in high school because he didn't come to a complete stop, allegedly. Didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign. And what, of course, the conversation was after the fact that he got in trouble is they were waiting for me.

And I know just because I get messages in all the time from listeners that have all these theories about law enforcement and how they're waiting for you. So I want that to be the basis of today's conversation. Last month, if you missed it, kfgo.com, we've had these conversations now a couple of times.

We're gonna do it a few more times throughout the rest of the year about major news items. I want to talk about what people are going through here. The question is, is law enforcement out to get you if you're a driver, if you're out doing things? I don't know who wants to take a stab at that first.

Bruce: You know, police officers have a job to do and they are wired to investigate. And once they come to the determination that somebody is possibly committing a crime, I mean, this is a dangerous analogy, but it's kind of like a hunter with a license. They're going to pursue until proven otherwise, that there's a reason to cut them loose.

Tyler: So with a small town, I want to go back because he still feels like he's wronged. Small town, we're high schoolers, just driving around. That's all we had to do back in the small town. You just get in the vehicle, you just drive. You do laps around town, a town of 450 people. And of course, he didn't have a town cop.

We had a county sheriff. And everybody knew when the sheriff was in town because guess what? You spread the word real quick. Don't be stupid.

He's out to get you, right? Well, the guy, my friend, got that day and he didn't allegedly come to a complete stop at the stop sign. He got pulled over and got in a lot of trouble there. Is it that, hey, they were just waiting for him? And in fact, what recourse would he have had? Or I mean, what do you do in that moment when you're pulled over? It's like, well, I don't know if I, I think I did come to a complete stop.

Bruce: What do you do in that situation? Well, I can tell you what I do when that happens. When I am unlawfully pulled over, the police officer comes up to the door and you have to provide them the driver's license and registration. And they will often ask you, do you know why I pulled you over? Well, the first mistake is to answer that question because that is, and this is something Dane and I talked about last week.

Tyler: You brought this to my attention. That is when they gather evidence that they can use against you. An admission by a suspect just gets to come into court.

Bruce: You know, the dirty secret of statements, anything you say that's good for you stays out of court. Anything you say that's bad for you goes into court. So what I do in that situation is I don't answer it.

And when they say, well, I saw you rolling that stop sign. My response is I need to see that squad video. And they kind of get, they kind of halt and they get a little flustered and say, well, we can't look at that now.

I said, well, I'll talk to the county attorney about that. The problem is, of course, I get a little cheeky because I know I was doing nothing wrong. And I also know that I understand the constitution better than the officers do.

But really in that moment, you should not be admitting anything. That's the first thing your friend should have done is to say effectively nothing. I've been 0 for 1 many times in that situation.

Tyler: You know, I was going a little fast. You caught me. So I shouldn't have just admitted up front.

Bruce: Here's an interesting thing, Tyler. There is a manual that prosecutors and defense attorneys in North Dakota use about DUI law. You know what the title of that book is? I only had two beers.

Why? Because everybody says that to law enforcement. I only had two beers. Well, then I'm going to cut you loose.

Or you can go on your way. No, no, no.

Tyler: So when I said that I was going just a little fast in that construction zone, because I was coming back from college, I shouldn't have.

Dane, you look ready to say something.

Dane: It's a difficult situation because our whole lives, we are taught to respect law enforcement and cooperate with law enforcement. And if you're not doing anything wrong, or if it's not a big deal, just tell them the truth and you'll go on your way and we'll figure it out and you have nothing to worry about.

But to go back to Bruce's analogy, when you are hunting something, you're going to try to get that game however you're doing it. The deer is not going to say to you, actually give me one second. I was bending my head over at the water for a second, but please don't shoot me.

Their job is to do this. And so when they ask you that question, it is hard to not give their response. But if you choose to do so, know that you are incriminating yourself.

It may get you out of a small violation like the speeding you talk about.

Tyler: Yeah, it didn't work. I got a ticket.

Bruce: And there you go. I had a comment. And what I would say to people is, the questions that police ask you, they've already made a decision as to what they'll be doing.

And they are now interrogating you from the moment they get out of their car.

Tyler: Oh, very good, it's helpful advice.

I've got callers lined up for you guys. We're going to get to those phone calls right now in just a moment. In fact, I'm going to take them in the order of which they came.

And that means, Mac you are on, after this live with Bruce Ringstrom Jr. and Dane DeKrey.

Caller: I have a question for Bruce Ringstrom Jr. I was wondering if, number one, the question is, and then I have a comment, a follow-up is, was he, is he the grandson of Norm Ringstrom from Fergus Falls? And if that's true, I have a follow-up.

Bruce: Important legal question! And yes, my grandfather was Norman Ringstrom from Fergus Falls. He was the general manager of the Hoot Lake plant. Go ahead, what's your follow-up?

Caller: Well, the follow-up is, I just want to, were you old enough to get to know him? Because if you're the junior, then I don't know, you might've been pretty young before he passed.

Bruce: I was 30 years old when my grandfather passed, so I knew him quite well.

Caller: Okay, well, I just want to reiterate what a wonderful man he was. I was a young Navy veteran just coming back from Beirut, Lebanon, and kind of mixed up in the mind, because you see stuff you really shouldn't want to see. But on the same aspect, he took me under his wing, because he at one time was a young Navy veteran. He told me he was one of the youngest guys on his ship.

Bruce: He was, he was one of the youngest men actually in the Navy in World War II, and I'm so glad that you called about that. He inspired me to go in the Navy as well, and I'm really grateful that you said nice things about my grandfather. I appreciate that.

Caller: He led me to be, I actually got involved in the VFW, and he led me to be a better person than I would have ever been. And I just want to let you know, in my opinion, he was a great, he was small in stature like I, but he was a great, great person. And I just wanted to clarify, and I thought that was the case. So thank you very much for taking my call.

Bruce: You're welcome, thank you so much. Thanks for calling in.

Tyler: Fellas, that's the power of KFGO for you. Small, it's a small world here that we all live in. Everybody knows a little bit of something about everybody. Builds up your street cred, too, there, Bruce. Dane, you're smiling for Bruce. Is he blushing a little over there?

Dane: What I love about Bruce is he never talks about it, but when he does, he's always real respectful, and when people bring it up, he's great about talking about his service. And that's one of the reasons why I got in partnership with these guys. His dad's the same way. I obviously didn't know Bruce's grandfather, but that is some real small-town, North Dakota, Minnesota values that undergirds the firm.

Bruce: That's great. And I'm gonna bring it back to what we were talking about before, because I just got a text from a good friend of mine, James. James is an ex-cop, and he really jumped down my throat about what I said before.

He said, we have not already made a decision. That is not correct. And I know James really well. He took his job very seriously. He's gonna be a lawyer one of these days. And it is true that police officers are trying to be serious when they are, they're acting in their capacity to protect public safety.

And the act of detaining someone and writing a citation is a lot of work. But it's also true that once they've engaged in that, they're taking the process seriously. I've, obviously, the kinds of cases that we end up litigating are the ones that find their way into court. And so those are the ones that police officers have investigated all the way through to completion. But that is one very good police officer's view, and I think it's fair that we put that on the air as well.

Dane: No, I completely agree with that.

Tyler: In fact, we'll come back with more of that, fellas. It's a race from decree. Your chance to get your criminal defense questions answered.

Tyler: The attorneys are in, and I got a question for you.

Following up from when, all right, I'm pulled over. And do you know why I pulled you over? Well, we covered that. Sometimes I'm like, well, do I have permission to look in your glove box or the center council? I've never, thankfully, been in that.

Bruce: I know that's not necessarily uncommon in a variety of situations.

Tyler: Bruce Ringstrom, what do you do in that situation? If you're pulled over and the cop says, hey, can I, do I have permission to?

Bruce: You say no! You always say no. Always. You say no if there's nothing but old receipts and used Q-tips in your glove box. It doesn't matter. This is, law enforcement wants permission because then they don't need probable cause. They don't need a warrant. They don't need an exception to a warrant. They can gather information in that way. We have represented so many people who consented their way into horrific charges just by saying, sure, you can look at that. You can look at my phone. You can come into my house. You can look in my trunk and so on. If you say no, the fear is that it's gonna be worse.

It's sort of like, well, if I remain silent, will I get in more trouble? No, you won't get in more trouble. If you deny, no. You might be detained longer, but the reality is if you consent, you have eliminated any reason for them to build a constitutionally sound reason to search your glove box or your car or whatever the case may be.

Dane: Yeah, it's defensive offsides. It's a free play for the cops. Don't let them have a free play. The moment you consent, they don't have to do the work that the constitution requires, and that's why they ask it up front because then they don't have to do all of the stuff that Bruce talked about.

Tyler: A follow-up question because, Bruce, you mentioned a cell phone.

Like, can I look at, have you heard from clients more now? Because, I mean, we hear all about distracted driving, right, that led to this. Do you hear more from clients saying, well, they asked to look at my cell phone because maybe I was distracted driving? Have you heard more about that? I'm just anecdotally here.

Bruce: Well, I've represented people on criminal vehicular homicide, criminal vehicular injury cases where law enforcement seizes the phone. They want to examine it, look at the metadata to see whether it was being manipulated at the time of the accident. I took a case like that to trial about eight years ago and got a not guilty verdict, so it does happen. There's still no reason to consent to the search.

If they think that there's a reason, that there's something on that phone that would support their case, they will seize the phone and then they will do what they need to to probably get a search warrant. And the search warrant is where, I mean, obviously, they don't, I mean, you've held off as long as you can.

Tyler: Now the courts come in and say, guess what? Time's up, buddy.

Bruce: Well, there's more to it and Dane's gonna talk about this because most of us have a lock on our phones, all right? If I am posed with a search warrant from my phone, well, I have an alphanumeric password. I'm not gonna give that alphanumeric password over. Now it's in constitutional flux whether you have to, but to my mind, that is within the Fifth Amendment confines of my brain.

Tyler: I don't have to provide that content. Dane?

Dane: Yeah, it's a new frontier of law because in the old way, you're talking about, I get a warrant for your house. Even if I don't want you to come in, once we have the warrant, the cops get to come in.

And even if you don't want them in, they're gonna kick the door down. You can't kick the door down of a phone because Apple and other phone companies, to their credit or not, depending on your view, have a really good door. And so the question is, if I have a warrant and I bring it to you and I say, Tyler, give me your passcode, just because you have a warrant, you can't get it out of my brain.

I can kick your door down. I can't kick your brain down. And so there's this question in the law, which is, can we make you hand over the contents of your passcode? And there's all these wrinkles.

Bruce has an alphanumeric because that one has more protection. If it's a face scan, they say that that doesn't have as much protection because your face isn't in your brain. It's not your own thoughts. It's not self-incrimination. So it's this wild frontier where the Supreme Court's going to have to decide soon. But cases are coming in everywhere.

And so anytime there's a case where they're asking you for your passcode, say no. If you say yes, there's litigation coming. I read about it too much at night. It's embarrassing.

But it is the next frontier of the Fourth Amendment. Which is why we talk about the biometrics.

Tyler: We got another half hour together, boys. So, the thumb imprint and the facial scan has different thresholds than, with Bruce with his alphanumerics, huh? Most courts say less protection.

Which doesn't make sense to me. But there's reasons for it and we can talk about it after the break.

Tyler: If you've got a criminal defense question, they've got answers on KFGO. It's Law Talk, that time of the month where we have criminal defense attorneys at Ringstrom DeKrey in studio taking your questions.

Fellas are piling up in the text club. I'll read the comment first. There's no excuse for driving under the influence, the vehicle being driven should be forfeited and a mandatory year in jail. Lose a loved one and then see how smart getting DUIs off is.

Tyler: Your comments as criminal defense attorneys to that comment.

Bruce: Well, anytime somebody dies as a result of a fatal car accident, it's a tragedy. I've defended those kinds of cases and I've both prevailed in some and not prevailed in others. I will say if somebody is only charged with a DUI, that means no one was hurt. A DUI is a special kind of crime where we criminalize something because of the risk of an injury or the risk of a death.

If somebody died, it should have been a criminal vehicular homicide charge. And certainly, if my family member died in that circumstance, I would be devastated as well. I know from experience on the North Dakota side, being out in the legislature, the changes that happen when it comes to DUI law enforcement about these whole mandatory minimums, and taking the approach to be more tough on this offense.

Tyler: I'm curious your interpretation of it. I mean, I know you guys are both, you know, North Dakota, Minnesota side here where the laws vary. Well, I can talk a little bit about the history.

Bruce: In 2000, the state of Minnesota created the felony DWI statute, which means the fourth DWI within 10 years is a felony. And a felony means you can actually go to prison. There was someone in Minnesota, his name is Danny Betcher. He had something on the order of 27 lifetime DWIs. And his DWI frequency didn't drop until the felony DWI statute. And he spent most of the rest of the last 15 years of his life in prison.

North Dakota has a felony DWI statute as well. So it is very different than it used to be. People can't get away with serial driving while impaired the way they could up through the late 1990s.

Tyler: I'm going to get to more of these questions. Law guys, if I move into a house and the neighbor has had a shed that is over my property line for over 20 years with the agreement of the former owner, does adverse possession mean they can keep their shed there? The same with a new landowner where the neighbor has had the fence in 20 feet in my property for 20 years without the former owner knowing it.

So I'm seeing adverse possession when it comes to property. Bruce, Dane.

Bruce: Adverse possession is one of the favorite things we love to talk about in law school. Tyler, I am a certified criminal law specialist. I am not a certified real estate specialist. That is who you need to speak to. But I will tell you, this is sort of like asking who owns the moon. It's one of these weird theoretical property questions that may admit of an answer, but it's more fun to talk about than it's a rare thing you actually see in reality.

Tyler: Another question. Can you legally videotape your encounter with law enforcement with your phone?

Bruce: The short answer is yes. As with everything in all of your interactions with police, the devil is in the details.

We were talking on the break about the difference between what we call defensive videoing, which is ‘I wanna make sure that the officer is following the book and doing everything he's supposed to’, and offensive videoing, which is, I think, cropped up in the age of social media where people video and perhaps are antagonistic to police officers. And so I would say, if you do make that decision, to understand that you should be as calm and collected and nice as you can during the interaction.

Tyler: If you're not cool, calm, collected, and you're videotaping because you're thinking that, ‘hey, they were out to get me’, kind of bringing this full circle to the top of the show, is that interaction, because now you've documented it, can that be used against you? Because the way you say anything can and will be used, I mean, all these things.

Bruce: Can you almost incriminate yourself because you videotaped this interaction? Sure, if you videotape anything, it can be used against you. And if you, in conjunction with the video recording, are acting in an obstructive manner or allegedly, you might be charged with obstruction of legal process and you can't claim the First Amendment in that situation. You might be able to try, a good attorney might do so, but the act of being really difficult and sort of pushing back on the cop physically might create its own separate criminal charge.

Tyler: if you're just joining the conversation here. Tyler, law enforcement for 35 plus years. Defense attorneys taught me how to do my job better. Each time I lost in court, I learned something. My goal was for a defense attorney to see my name on report and have their client plead. I rarely went to court as a result.

Dane: It's, these are great texts. Earlier in the show, I said something, a police officer texted Bruce about it, pushed back a little bit. This is the nature of the relationship. But let me tell you a quick story that dovetails with that text message. Bruce and I had a hearing yesterday in Cass County. I won't get into more details.

Bruce did an excellent job cross-examining an officer who clearly hadn't been cross-examined by someone of Bruce's caliber. And my guess is that man is going, iron sharpens iron or whatever the phrase is. That man is now going to have that story about Bruce in his career.

I saw him look at the prosecutor a few times thinking, I need a lifeline here, can you help me out? And you can't do that in live cases. And so good criminal defense lawyers, and I watched Bruce do it yesterday, make better police officers who then do their jobs better. And what does Paul Wellstone say? We're all better when we're all better.

We're all doing better. That is what our job is. And I believe in my heart that we make the system better and it's easy to dog on us. But in reality, that isn't a perfect comment.

Tyler: It's interesting because when I've had you guys, now this is the third time that we've been able to have this Law Talk segment. We're having a lot of fun and I get a lot of great feedback from our listeners.

Tyler: The relationship between U.S. criminal defense attorneys and law enforcement, I think people have it in their mind as though you guys are just always at each other. I mean, is that an accurate representation? What I just heard from you, Dane, is look, we're just trying to help our clients, yes, but also help law enforcement do better at their job.

I don't know that that's necessarily antagonistic, but what representation do you want people to have about your profession and law enforcement's relationship?

Dane: Well, I want Bruce to answer that. But what I always say to people when they ask that is, it's just business. This is our job. It's just business. It's not personal. But, you know, Bruce.

Bruce: Yeah, there are police officers that I have an antagonistic relationship with and there are different personalities in different professions, that may be it. But as Dane said, iron sharpens iron. I've told this story many times. My father, Bruce Ringstrom Sr., 40 some years ago was approached by a police officer in a courthouse who said, you know, Ringstrom, I don't like you very much, but when I'm out on the street, I'm thinking about what you're going to do with a case and it makes me better, just like this other officer.

Well, that officer, I'm going to drop his name, is Dave Pearson, who was a police officer in Moorhead and probably has more DWI arrests and convictions than anyone in this community. He became my scoutmaster and mentored me to an Eagle, to become an Eagle Scout. And he was a better officer because of that interaction.

And I learned that I respect what they do. Some of them respect what I do, but the adversarial process does make it better.

Tyler: We've talked about the changes from public, I don't know, it's not perception, but I mean, we had some very volatile times, especially in the Moorhead, Minnesota, Minneapolis side of this 790 signal. You know, I mean, we watched riots happen. People talked about law enforcement and their approach to certain populations. And the tension was at a boiling point about law enforcement and how people had seemingly lost respect for that.

How did that impact what you guys do? Did that public conversation ever trickle into, yeah, and these guys, these criminal defense attorneys, what they do, looking out for us, you know, is either a magical moment or I don't know how to better phrase this. I'm trying here. Did you ever get swept up in this public conversation of law enforcement in that very volatile time, I guess is how I'll end it.

Bruce: Well, we feel a perception of law enforcement in this community that's different than other communities. So I've worked with lawyers who are from New Orleans and there's a feeling amongst a broad population in New Orleans, they don't regard law enforcement the way that the broad population up here does. So it's definitely something that we think about.

We did represent people who were charged in those riots. And, you know, we approach those cases with the same zeal, but the issues are different. I mean, the kinds of people who found themselves in that situation, frankly, are different than the kinds of people who might sit on a jury.

Tyler: Dane, anything to add? I have another question that came in for you.

Dane: Give me the question.

Tyler: Okay, I'll give you the question, okay.This was in West Fargo. It's at the post office. There was a sign that was displayed at the West Fargo post office. I believe this one's on Main Avenue. Here's what the sign reads when you're pulling it. Vehicles and their contents are subject to inspection when entering, leaving or while parked within this restricted area.

Entering into this area constitutes consent to the inspection. This is a post office parking lot. Is this lawful? Is it legal? Is this kind of hedging on something here?

Dane: As any great lawyer will always answer at the very beginning of a hypothetical, I'm not sure, it depends, but let me give you some thoughts.

I would first ask if that was a federal statute that they cite or something called the Code of Federal Regulations. If it's a statute, it's probably more likely to be accurate. If it's a CFR, it's probably less likely. So that's question number one. I can give you an answer to question number one. Let me hear it.

Tyler: I see at the bottom of this is 39 CFR.

Dane: Well, what I would say then is this may be a bit of the bark is greater than the bite because it's not a federal statute. It's a regulation.

And the next question is what I would look at is that does it allow this search or seizure under the regulation? And if so, what must they have from that? I can look at that and I can answer that, but the short answer is I would be very skeptical that that is legal under that framework.

Tyler: Okay, so let's say I'm in this parking lot. I go in, I'm just gonna get a mail from my PO box. All right, I'm standing in line because I need stamps. Boy, are they getting expensive. Long line, so I'm out there.

Somebody goes in for an employee and they inspect my vehicle. Well, the sign says they can, but let's come out and I say, hey, man, what are you doing? What happens then? Call you guys is probably number one, but what happens in that situation?

Dane: Well, what happens in that situation is you let the process play out and then whatever is meted out, whatever is decided, then you challenge that on the back end. I think sometimes this is important for all of these conversations.

If you don't think a cop is doing something legal, if you don't agree with it, you're not gonna be in a better position if you yourself take vigilante justice and punch that post officer or whatever it is. You, unfortunately, you stay calm if you can, you take the medicine in real time and then you hire a lawyer to help you challenge what you think is illegal conduct.

Tyler: When we come back, let's talk about how they can get ahold of you too at Ringstrom DeKrey. I gotta get a weather update from two tall Tom Schumasky. We'll get you the details. You got questions and sometimes it takes more than just this one hour a month. So we'll get you those details and then we'll wrap up after he's live next.

Tyler: We've only got a few minutes before that five o'clock punch out does strike. Ringstrom DeKrey, the criminal defense attorneys are answering.

Bruce Ringstrom Jr., though, I wanna give you some final thoughts. I know that you've had a lot of texts coming in about a variety of the topics. We've been talking about law enforcement, the approach to you as somebody who's been pulled over.

The room is yours, my friend.

Bruce: Well, I appreciate that. No, my friend who's an ex-police officer, he's got the same amount of time on the beat as I do practicing criminal defense.

And he agreed that the adversarial system being pressured by defense attorneys makes him better at his job. He wanted to make it really clear that they just don't arrest based on a race. Police officers can have actors that are bad actors just like bad criminal defense attorneys, bad doctors, but broadly speaking, they don't.

There's a pressure that comes from being a police officer where you're dealing with tough situations all the time and you might see statistical likelihoods come up of the kinds of people that you find yourself arresting. But he wanted to make it very clear, my good friend, that when you arrest someone, you do so because they broke the law, not because what their skin color is. And I think when we're talking about things like the protests and the like, it's important to recognize that.

There are bad actors, but that's something that's important to know. Keep in mind, innocent people are charged all the time. And one of the reasons why we file Fourth Amendment challenges and Fifth Amendment challenges and challenges to various searches is obviously that's our job, but there are all kinds of innocent people that are stopped and searched and nothing is found.

And some of those times, there wasn't probable cause for it. Some of those times, law enforcement shouldn’t have done that. So we are doing this for everyone. It’s kind of like Larry Flint said about the first amendment, if it protects a dirt bag like him, it protects everyone. If the fourth amendment protects somebody who has meth in their car, it protects all of us.

Tyler: Dane, final word from you? And then we’ll get the details for how people can contact you.

Dane: I think it’s important and it’s good to hear this back and forth between the two sides of this adversarial process. I think that Bruce’s police officer friend it’s good for him to listen and hold us accountable and push back on some of the things that we’ve been saying. I will say that there is one thing that we need to reckon with and it is that throughout our system, and it’s the difference between explicit and implicit bias.

Tyler: Agree.

Dane: And what he is talking about is explicit bias. ‘I pull this man over because he is black. I don’t like him because he is black and I’m looking for a crime.’ I don’t think many officers do that. I think every once in a while, they do that. But that is very rare. But there is implicit bias. And that means without even realizing it, we all make decisions that are statically bias even without knowing we are doing it in real time.

Bruce: And you know Dane, I want to put this out. Criminal defense attorneys engage in implicit bias when they work with their clients. We have to keep ourselves in check. How do we defend a case. What is their educational background?

Dane: Yeah. I’ve read statistics that criminal defense lawyers file less motions for black people than they do for their white clients. The same way that there are more arrests for black people so when I talk about this this is system wide. This is not putting it on the cops thing. We all can do better with race. And that’s really important in this system because disproportionately it affects race.